Constantine's Lesson
It's often pointed out by secularists like myself that when government mixes with religion, the government's ability to perform its proper role is co-opted by the needs of faith. Certain things are outlawed that should not be based merely on the whims of a capricious textual deity. Certain people become second-class citizens because of their beliefs, or their lack of them. In short, government fails to provide the maximum amount of freedom for all of its citizens and it ceases to adequately represent its population.
That's a powerful argument for those inclined to liberty and secularism, but its one that falls on deaf ears when presented to fundamentalists of any stripe, because these are people who see the above situation as a good one. They make different assumptions about the nature of an ideal society than the rest of us. There is another argument, however, that I find is made far less often, but that I find far more powerful when dealing with those whom Richard Dawkins might call "dyed-in-the-wool faithheads." That is the argument that government, when mixed with religion, will almost inevitably corrupt it.
I see government entanglement in religion as going two ways, though it is obviously more complex than I can cover in a short blog post. Firstly, you have a government that is co-opted by religion to meet religion's ends. This is the case with modern Islamic theocracies, and would be the case in America if the Christian right had their say-so.
The other option is that the government co-opts religion for its own ends. This has happened numerous times throughout history and might just be one of the most defining characteristics of the Christian religion. Only a few centuries after its inception, it was co-opted by the Roman Empire and was never the same. Throughout European history we see a consistent pattern of corruption within the religion due to its mixture with the politics of the time.
Before Constantine, Christianity was a hedge religion, practiced by some small part of the population of the Roman Empire. Depending on who was heading Rome at the time, Christians were by turns outlawed, persecuted, scapegoated, or allowed to practice their religion in peace. For the first few centuries of the religion, there was no universally accepted canon of holy documents in use. What would eventually become the Bible was a loose aggregation of books from here and there, and the exact specifics were completely mutable from church to church and area to area. Overall, though, when they weren't being outlawed, persecuted, or scapegoated, Christians were free to practice their religion as they saw fit.
Then along came Emperor Constantine. Son of a devoutly Christian mother, he himself was a pagan worshipper of Sol Invictus, the Unconquered Sun, until the "vision" he had that told him he would conquer under the chi-roh. He put it on the shields of his military and won the battle. That's the grade-school version.
When you look more deeply at it, you find that while we are always told he put "The Christian chi-roh" on his army's shields, in actuality, the chi-roh was not identified with Christianity until Constantine put it to that use. It's unclear that it even existed at all. This is to say, it may not have meant at the time what it has come to mean today.
That is a minor and relatively unsupported quibble, however, and what is clear is that no matter the specificities of the symbology used, Constantine's army knew they were fighting for the Christian god now. It is here important to note that a significant portion of his army was made up of Christians. Given that people don't generally experience "divine visions," it is probably fair to say that his sudden "conversion" was a rather convenient morale booster for a tired and overworked military. The vision story is heavily steeped in myth, and comes down to us only from Christian sources, all of which are inherently biased.
Constantine, after the chi-roh at the Battle of Milvian Bridge, returned to Rome and declared Christianity to be legal. He became a patron of Christianity, but Constantine himself remained a worshipper of Sol Invictus and, while paying lip service to Christianity, often attended pagan ceremonies which were the direst of heresy to Christians. He did not officially convert until he was baptized while lying on his deathbed.
It is often thought that he made Christianity the official religion of the Empire, but he did not. He left that for the later Emperor Theodosius I. Constantine legalized it and patronized it with public monies. He built churches and gave back all the previously confiscated property of the various churches. Most importantly for this discussion, however, was his practice of elevating Christians. Though he himself remained a pagan, he used Christianity as a rallying point for his empire. He made Christians the new elites of society. Those that converted were given social and political perks, and it became hard for pagans to get ahead in society unless they publicly converted to Christianity.
What we see here is both the first major government entanglement with Christianity, and the first major government corruption of Christianity. Wealthy and powerful Romans converted in droves to get the new perks offered by giving lip service to the Emperor's new favorite religion. What had before been a pastoral religion followed only by those that honestly and devoutly believed it soon became a social and political fad and, in time, the honest Christians became outnumbered by converted pagans who didn't give a damn whatsoever about Jesus or his teachings but instead cared only for what power and wealth they could gain by conversion.
Constantine's effect on Christianity was cemented in writing, so to speak, at the Council of Nicea in 325. This was the committee that met to decide upon the "official" church canon. Documents were brought in from the whole of the Christian empire and pared down to the twenty-seven books that have come down the centuries to us. Many were left out for reasons that remain unclear but were most likely political in nature; "divine inspiration" was decided based on the needs and desires of the various representatives at the council. Sure sounds divinely inspired to me. Among those left out were the Gospel and Apocalypse of Peter, the Infancy and Childhood Gospels, the Gospel of Thomas, and the Gospel of Mary. The Book of Revelation was itself almost left out of the final product, pretty much because it is, to use technical terminology, batshit insane. Those at the council basically were not sure it wasn't simply the ravings of a madman. They ended up including it, however, despite their initial doubts. This demonstrates pretty well that it was neither obvious nor clear to those at the council what books were "divine" and which were not.
So, in the end, what did Constantine accomplish by legalizing Christianity? Well, he won a major battle, got ten percent of the population on his side when they had previously been on the outskirts of his empire, and by giving perks to Christians and converters, solidified his empire under a far less divisive religion than the various paganisms that went around at the time, all the while continuing to be a pagan himself. He did pretty well for himself, didn't he? Sounds like he had his cake and ate it, too.
Christianity, on the other hand, was irreparably scarred by his involvement. It went from a quiet, private faith populated by the truly faithful to a massive social phenomenon populated by the socially and politically expedient. Christian traditions were blended with pagan traditions to make it even more palatable to Rome's base. The Bible was essentially created by a group of politically-appointed councilmen with a vested interest in pleasing the Emperor, and it replaced the collections of documents used by the small, private churches at the time, forever altering how they ran their own faith. Political orthodoxy immediately overran the freedom with which the church had previously conducted themselves. All of this led eventually to the various hierarchies, structures, and arbitrary ecumenical rules of the Catholic church, many of which had little if anything to do with the bible itself much less the many books in use before 325. This, in turn, led to the first Great Schizm, the Protestant Reformation, and the modern state of a thousand fractured shards of Christianity all fighting it out between each other over the scraps of self-declared "eternal truth" to which each clings.
Sounds like Christianity got a pretty raw deal. However, without Constantine's endorsement, it is likely that the religion would have eventually faded from history. At the very best, it would not have nearly its current number of adherents. Christianity, in order to get onto the historical map and continue its existence, had to sell its own soul. How does that verse from Matthew go again?What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? (Matthew 16:26)
An entire religion can gain recognition, adherents, and longevity. In exchange for its soul, Christianity gained influence and power.
The first government entanglement with Christianity, and the first example of government corruption of Christianity.
History continued in this vein for a dozen centuries. Politically-appointed popes with illegitimate children, multiple popes at once fighting it out for power, wars, schizms, orthodoxy issues, crusades. The pastoral religion of peace, in the space of a few highly-political centuries, became a militant faith of murder and butchery. The governments that were entangled with Christianity used the religion as a rallying point for land- and power-grabbing wars with Islam. Children were sent happily to their deaths, singing in joyous voices all the way. Governments corrupting religion, forever and irreparably.
Henry VIII broke away from the Pope to form the Church of England over a personal moral squabble: he wanted to marry and divorce and kill wife after wife and he wanted the wealth and property of the Catholic parishes in Britain. He used his force of government to make a new favored church in his own empire and again rewarded those that converted to his new "rape and pillage" faith. Later on, King James commissioned a retranslation of the Bible and gave us his own version, generally considered the poorest and most politically-motivated translation of the book that was once considered "holy." Nothing has ever been the same.
Let's move forward to modern times. There are still a few European countries that still have "official" state religions. Those countries are, almost to a one, some of the most secular and non-religious countries on the planet. Over time, the government has watered down the "official" faiths so much that they no longer have any power and are mere shades of their beginnings. They are hardly even recognizeable as Christianity and modern concerns have left them unenforced and unenforceable. Government entanglement has made them what they are today.
The very first government entanglement with Christianity immediately destroyed its base foundation and made it into a religion of poseurs, of politically-savvy social climbers and the dishonest wealthy elite. This pattern has continued for more than a millennium and a half. State entanglement with religion shows a consistent pattern throughout history of corruption of the goals and values of the religion with which it is involved.
But, you might say, that is often not the case in a number of militant Islamic dictatorships and theocracies in the Middle East. We cannot, however, see the internal state of the faith of the country. The governments there rule with an iron fist and an AK-47, and so of course it appears that the "faith" is being kept. It's the reverse version of Constantine's perks and incentives. Instead of positive reinforcement for following Christianity, those countries offer often deadly punishment for wavering from their intended vision of Islam. Neither way is conducive to an honest acceptance of the religion or a solid, united faith. One panders to the ambitious and the other threatens force against the heretical.
So those are your options, theocrats and dominionists, held up time and time again by centuries of history: police the faith with fire and blood, or watch it slowly erode into nothingness beneath your feet. Either way, your religion, once entangled with government, will never, ever be the same again. It will become populated by the dishonest, false converts desiring either social position or an end to persecution. It will find itself unable to hold to orthodoxy within the constantly-shifting currents of global politics. It will be co-opted by political opportunists and changed to fit agenda after agenda. It will find itself hated and resisted by those that do not wish to be put-upon with a faith that is not theirs. It will be forever and inevitably changed and corrupted, and after time you will no longer even recognize it. It will never, can never be as you envision it. This is the lesson we learn from Constantine I, from Theodosius, from Henry VIII, from King James, from the Church of England: relgion belongs in the private home, the private church or hall of worship, not the halls of government. That way, for both you and us, lies madness.
The blogswarm.





27 comments:
Constantine's pandering to the large Christian population of the time was some pretty opportune political capital.
That was an outstanding post, Akusai.
✮✮✮✮✮
you write eloquently, and moreover, you have a very good point. i would add, however, that Henry VIII's reign brought more than just his own freedom to basically do as he would to England: it also brought the utter and irreversible destruction of our finest architecture, the monasteries, and the irrecoverable loss of centuries' worth of manuscripts, relics and treasures. all this was to be followed by more centuries of see-saw religious persecution.
no, theocracy has not done my country good at all; we are a stellar example of what not to do in that respect, alongside the polar opposite, places like Saudi Arabia. thank you for bringing this to light, Akusai.
Lepht
Dikki:
Thanks a lot. I'm glad you got something out of it.
Lepht:
You bring up a very good point. I intentionally left off mentioning Henry's effects on art and architecture because it was a post about theocracy's effect on religion itself. While it would have been tangentially appropriate, the damn thing was too long as it was. Thanks for bringing it up in the comments.
An interesting read. Well done!
Excellent post. I like the way you took it from the point of view that the merging of government and religion is bad for the religion itself, which should be more convincing to the faithful. Very informative too.
Very good indeed. You make my "Best of Blogswarm" (abrgd.) list!
HJ
You both claim Christianity was practiced by a relatively samll number of Romans and that many of Constantine's soldiers were Christians. You seem conflicted.
Also, the First Council of Nicea did *NOT* establish the canon of the Bible - you are off by about 60 years and the Council of Rome. This is a pretty serious error.
You also seem ignorant of the political and social power already extant within the Christian community before Constantine's legalization. Several Emperor's had many Christians within their families and the phenomenon of Christians amongst the elites of Roman society was well-advanced at the time of Constantine. To claim he *introduced* social climbers is a bit disingenuous.
You both claim Christianity was practiced by a relatively samll number of Romans and that many of Constantine's soldiers were Christians. You seem conflicted.
I'm suprised to have to even point out that the size of the population of the Roman Empire and the size of the Roman army were not remotely equal. Draw a Venn diagram, that should demonstrate that the two statements are not inherently conflicting.
As for the rest of your claims, please provide some sort of citation or evidence that what you say is credible. And yes, not being able to distinguish between differences in population sizes detracts from your credibility.
Apparently, Deep Thought, you don't understand that it is entirely possible for the meagre population of Christians to be overrepresented in the military, as was the case. The percentage of a particular demographic group does not necessarily hold steady in different contexts. For example, while atheists and agnostics make up somewhere between 2% and 10% of the US population, they are drastically underrepresented in the prison population, with some studies suggesting that the percentage of atheists in prison is closer to one tenth of one percent.
Blacks have it the opposite way; they are drastically overrepresented in the prison population. African-Americans make up about 12% of the US population, while almost 50% of prison inmates are black.
But how can this be? Blacks only make up 12% of the population, therefore I would "seem conflicted" to suggest that they make up almost half of the prison population, but there it is. What's so hard to understand about this?
I concede the Council of Rome. That was my mistake. The misidentification of the Council, however, does not change my point: a group of people came together to somehow magically pick out which books were "canon" and which were not. This changed the face of Christianity forever and was a direct result of the church's empowerment after its legalization by Constantine.
As for the rest of the information, from the overrepresentation of Christians in the military to Constantine's Christian social climbers, you can look to the book The Story of Christianity by Justo Gonzales. This book is a stellar history text and it is from it that I got the lion's share of my information. It is a highly-respected book on church history, a standard textbook of many Christian History classes at secular universities, Christian school, and seminaries. If you want to argue the rest of it, argue it with Mr. Gonzales, not me.
You mistake me - I was referring to the references in the piece and comments to Christianity being a hedge group and then the reference to it being 'a large population'. I was seeking clarity.
As for the meaning and outsome of the First Council of Nicea and the establishment of biblical canon, I suggest: The encyclopedia Britannica; the excellent textbook Christianity in the 4th Century; the Catholic Encyclopedia; the Catholic Answers webpage; the Catholic Study Bible; the book "The Seven Ecumenical Councils"; one of the dozens of good books on the First Nicean Council; one of the many good books on the history of the biblical canon or the First Council of Rome; or even the webpage found here:
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/nicaea.html
(original link included) which has a rather extensive list of references of its own.
As I said, making the rather easily-refuted claim that the canon of the bible was established at the First Nicean Council is a rather serious error, especially in the context of this argument.
The military was still the key to political power for newcomers to the Empire; Gibbon's Rise and Fall goes into this in detail, as do a number of other texts. Add in the fact that several members of not only Constantine's family, but also of a number of previous emperors. It is well known that emperor Diocletian (previous to Constatine) had a Christian wife and daughters and that the majority of his court were Christians. To claim that Constatine's actions suddenly made Christianity subject to social climbers and glory seekers is to not only disregard over 100 years of Christians being over-represented in the legions, the court, and the Imperial family. It also reveals that you probably are not aware of the great volume of literature that survives showing that early Christian leaders were very concerned about this and worked to keep social climbers out of the hierarchy. Did it become less dangerous? Yes. Did Constantine cause it? No.
Further, the implication that a group of people met at the Council of Rome and just threw darts at a board or cherry-picked the books for the canon of the bible is to ignore the previous 250+ years of discussion of the canon amongst church leaders and scholars.
Toss in the fact that the bishop/priest/monk hierarchy had existed for over 200 years by the time you claim it sprang into being post-Nicea, and you may have read the basic introductory textbook by Gonzalez, but it looks like you stopped there.
BTW - I am a theologian who lives in Atlanta - I have argued with Dr. Justo and I probably will again.
Further, the implication that a group of people met at the Council of Rome and just threw darts at a board or cherry-picked the books for the canon of the bible is to ignore the previous 250+ years of discussion of the canon amongst church leaders and scholars.
Straw man. Point out where I said this and maybe we'll have something to talk about. What I said was that bunch of delegates from all over the empire gathered to have a committee discussion over what was "divinely inspired" and what was not. They all had their own reasons for their own positions, and nobody threw any darts to make their decisions, but the fact that they would need a committee and a series of debates and discussions to decide what was "divine" and what wasn't speaks pretty clearly to me about the lack of clear "divine inspiration" in the various books of the Bible. I hardly disregarded the prior centuries of canon discussion, but prior to the finalization at the Council of Rome (not Nicea), there was no single canon anywhere. Different documents were used in different places, and while discussion took place and often the "canon" varied little from place to place, the Council that created the Bible had to leave out some things that were declared canon elsewhere.
The point is that no one person (or committee) can be said to be an authority over what "God" did or did not "inspire" to be written. That they had to discuss it at all, that there were any disagreements whatsoever, demonstrates a clear problem in the "divine inspiration" theories. The other, much bigger problem, is that there's no evidence for the existence of a deity.
Christianity is as historically contingent as anything else in the world. Without Constantine, the entire history of Christianity would be completely different. Without the specific people that showed up at the various ecumenical councils, doctrine would be different. These ideas seem trivially obvious to me. Basically, I find you arguing nitpicks that in no way really detract from the major point of the post: that political involvement changes religion, almost inevitably and forever, and as such is bad for both the religious and the nonreligious. Do you dispute this claim, or merely some of the specific claims I made to back it up?
BTW - I am a theologian who lives in Atlanta - I have argued with Dr. Justo and I probably will again.
So what you're telling me here, as I interpret it, is (1) you have spent your life studying contentless nonsense and (2) you reject my source of information prima facie and thus make your job that much easier.
Let me quote you:
"Constantine's effect on Christianity was cemented in writing, so to speak, at the Council of Nicea in 325. This was the committee that met to decide upon the "official" church canon. Documents were brought in from the whole of the Christian empire and pared down to the twenty-seven books that have come down the centuries to us. Many were left out for reasons that remain unclear but were most likely political in nature; "divine inspiration" was decided based on the needs and desires of the various representatives at the council. Sure sounds divinely inspired to me. Among those left out were the Gospel and Apocalypse of Peter, the Infancy and Childhood Gospels, the Gospel of Thomas, and the Gospel of Mary. The Book of Revelation was itself almost left out of the final product, pretty much because it is, to use technical terminology, batshit insane. Those at the council basically were not sure it wasn't simply the ravings of a madman. They ended up including it, however, despite their initial doubts. This demonstrates pretty well that it was neither obvious nor clear to those at the council what books were "divine" and which were not."
Ignoring the error of getting the wrong council, this is simply not how it happened. The discussion of the canon of the new testament had been ongoing with well-attested documentation surviving from around 100 AD. While you may argue semantics about 'individual canon' existing throughout Christendom, the fact is that the canon of the New Testament was very settled with regional variations being included as 'additional reading' before the year 285. The canon was only issued as an "official list" because of the Arian and Gnostic heresies that were attempting to add books to the existing canon.
Further, the nature of Catholic theology has been one of group discernment by theologians since apostolic times; thus, the Councils. To claim that the use of a council to determine divine inspiration is the straw man here - Catholic theology has always seen the need for the magisterium.
My contention with your writing is this; you claim a broad, general theory but the specifics you offer as evidence are so error-ridden that they do more to reveal your ignorance than to buttress your theory. Its like watching a young earth creationist talking about thermodynamics.
While you argue that Christianity is 'historically contingent' the actual dogmas and doctrines of the Church did not change after Constatine. Nor did Catholic dogma change after Henry VIII, nor did the Vulgate change after the KJV.
Also, I didn't say I reject Justo's works or theories; just that I know him, a bit, and that we have differences (mainly on justification). And I also know that the book you cite is a basic introductory work.
And a guy with a philo degree is calling *my* studies 'contentless'? I thought they still discussed 'ad hominem' in Logic.
They did. An ad hominem fallacy is made when one uses an insult as a premise in an argument, which would have been the case if I had said "You are a theologian and your subject is contentless, therefore you are wrong," which is not what I said. I simply insulted you for being a theologian, which is certainly an insult, but not an ad hominem. Please see this post for a more in-depth description.
The point, was, in case you missed it, that you should go wave your credentials elsewhere because I don't give a damn.
Theologian or no, it seems utterly absurd to claim that Catholic doctrine didn't change after Constantine. There was no official Catholic church before Constantine. That seems itself an incorrect blanket statement. After all, it was only last year that Pope Benedict officially decided that "limbo" doesn't exist anymore.
And I wasn't arguing that the Catholic church was changed by Henry VII or King James, I was arguing that religion changed because of them. Did you miss that?
One more thing:
Were arguing with me like arguing with a YEC, I would never had admitted I was wrong about the Council of Nicea. Unlike a dogmatic religionist, however, I thought to myself "Hmm...I might be wrong. Let's look at this." Turns out I was wrong, so I conceded that I was wrong.
As to your claims of biblical canon, I've read too many books that indicate exactly the opposite to give into a lone commenter's claims that "It was always like that anyway."
Even if you were right, 100% right, however, it doesn't change the fact that the bible was compiled by committee. It would be a number of smaller, informal committees over time, but canon was formulated by committee all the same. There was no dart-throwing, I never claimed that, but in either your situation or mine, what we have is men, regular men, coming together with their own needs, politics, and biases, to somehow decide infallibly what was "divinely inspired." If a committee to decide this doesn't strike you as completely absurd, I'm not sure what else I can say.
YEC's sometimes admit grievous errors, yet they cling to their conclusions regardless of the mistakes they make. Thus, your argument may drift from Constantine inventing the bible to a council doing so; it can alter from Christianity being a fringe religion before Constantine to, actually, being influential enough that the persecutions were because so many people were converting it was in danger of causing a weakening of the traditional social tools used to enforce loyalty. Doesn't matter to you! It can't be divine, it can't be constant, it must be corrupt.
Thus, despite the great deal of verifiable history of biblical canon development online alone, it doesn't matter; you know what you know. Thus, the comparison to a YEC. "Cause I have met YEC's that admit that well, yeah, thermodynamics doesn't work that way, but its still not evidence that I have a weak understanding of the subject.
Just like you.
"I'm not sure what else I can say."
Now that he's so thoroughly poisoned the well by comparing the straw man he's erected to young earth creationists, any further argument on your part will be interpreted as a dogmatic unwillingness to concede anything more than you already have.
Bob, that exact thought did cross my mind. That being said...
Your poor straw man is suffering a terrible beating. Never did I say that "Constantine created the bible." Here's a quick summation of this laughable "debate," as I see it:
1. I make a post.
2. You read post, and comment that I am wrong in a couple of places.
3. I concede that yes, I was wrong on one of the points, but then go ahead and argue my case for the others.
4. You build a little straw man regarding my claims about Catholic canon and wave around your credintials like they mean something.
5. I clarify my claims in the hopes that you will see your straw man for what it is.
6. You compare me to a YEC, stick to the straw man, and keep whaling away at him.
See, for someone that accused me of ad hominem, you sure are fond of it yourself. By comparing me to a YEC, you are committing a textbook ad hom fallacy. It goes something like this:
P1. You are like an ignorant YEC.
C. Therefore, you are wrong.
For those in the cheap seats:
P1: [Irrelevant personal attack]
C. [Claim that I am wrong based on that attack]
Fucking textbook. Rather than engaging my arguments, which I would be more than happy to admit to be erroneous if you could show them to be, you simply scream "You're ignorant like a YEC!" This allows you to immediately discount everything I have to say with a "He's just like a YEC, he's ignorant, therefore he's wrong." Sorry, it doesn't work that way.
You accuse me of waffling or somesuch. What I have done is attempt to explain to you why my conclusion is still correct even if your facts end up right and mine wrong. You compare that to YEC tactics and thus take license to completely ignore my arguments. "You're just dogmatic!" Even if I was, that wouldn't change the validity (or lack thereof) of my arguments.
In addition, your claims that I am dogmatic seem to display some amount of projection: for you, perhaps, Christian history has to be cleaner than I or others might present it. It bears saying that the idea that political involvement corrupts religion is not one I always held. A conservative Christian who was interested in a sharp separation between church and state convinced me it was true. It is not a dogma to which I hold.
I have explained to you before why I disagree with your summation of early Christian history: I have heard quite a different story in the multiple accounts I have read, and I was taught a different story by multiple professors of history, all of whom I would regard as more objective than a theologian. For example: you claim that Christians were persecuted because they were becoming too much of a threat to empire. I think that's bullshit. I think they were, as I said in the post, being scapegoated. I'm not trying to evoke the Hitler Zombie or fulfill Godwin's law, but the treatment of Christians at the hands of certain Caesars was similar to that of the Jews in WWII: the public was clamoring for blood, and the dictator fed that lust by persecuting a minority population. Unlike WWII, there were ways to avoid being "thrown to the lions," and it is also important to point out that the legends of nonstop, incredibly bloody persecution that come down to us don't tell the real story. It was never that bad.
To avoid cries of "Ad hominem!" again, however, I should point out: your credentials are irrelevant to the argument. Theologian or no, if you're right you're right and if you're wrong you're wrong. Same with me, YEC-tactics or not. I have, in the past, been given no reason to believe for a moment your version of the events. Coming to my blog and throwing around repeated straw men and ad hominems is certainly not a good way to convince me. The books I've read, the history I've studied, the lectures I've attended have all informed my thoughts on the matter.
Just because you're a theologian doesn't mean I have to agree with you.
I see that you are ignoring the actual flow of the discourse in order to claim some sort of moral victory. Fine, for what its worth, but this is easily checked. let's try to sum up from the perspective of someone who came in from the outside, as it were.
You make serious claims about the nature of governmental influence on religion in general. You attempt to use specific examples (Constantine and the early Catholic Church) to buttress your argument.
I point out serious errors with your examples, one of which you admit. However, you refuse to acknowledge that your central claims (on the impact of governmental influence upon religion) is weakened by your demonstrated ignorance of the truth concerning the specific example that you put forth as support.
You made a claim to authority (in this case, a specific textbook by a specific author) and tried to neutralize me by that claim ("If you want to argue the rest of it, argue it with Mr. Gonzales, not me.) yet seem rather cross that such an appeal to authority fails to impress me (I pointed out that I do, indeed, know Dr. Gonzalez professionally). If you are going to chew on me for a claim to authority, why did you make one yourself, first?
And the idea that I am trying to make the history of early Christianity somehow 'cleaner' than thee is so ridiculous that it is laughable. You need to claim that a single man, Constantine, and his lackies essentially invented Catholicism whole cloth to really support your argument. I am pointing out the centuries of intrigue, debate, and outright warfare that occurred long before Constantine was born, resulting in canon being largely settled before that fateful council... that had nothing to do with biblical canon - yet I am the one looking for a 'cleaner' history.
Pull the other one.
And my claims about your attitude are not irrelevant; you make strong claims that your specific example does not, in fact, support. Despite the fact (which you must acknowledge) that you made a grievous error of detail in claiming the canon was officially established at 1st Nicea, your opinion and conclusions will not change. In short 'my facts were wrong, my example falwed, but I am still sure I am right'. That attitude, that seeming unwillingness to change your mind, is what I am pointing out.
I have listed not only a serious of verifiable, independent sources to check early Christian history and provided a direct link to a rich bibliography of primary and secondary source materials to continue to demonstrate that your awareness of the early Church is rather one-sided. Please provide at least a partial list of these 'books you've read, lectures you've attended' etc. that have given you this certitude of outlook with such paucity of facts.
I have grown tired of this debate. I am not trying to make claims to victory, you tit, I am trying to get you to understand why I think what I think so that, just perhaps, we can agree to disagree.
I am not a creationist telling you that Ken Ham and Kent Hovind told me one thing, and I believe them. I am a pretty hard-nosed skeptic telling you that other sources have led me to believe other than that which you would suggest, though one less-than-reputable book I read in high school tried to claim that the Emperor literally forced canon on the church at swordpoint; this, you still fail to recognize, is not the claim I am making or a claim that I ever have made or come anywhere near. I make no mention of Constantine and these cronies of whom you speak, I have said, time and again, that the men who came to the Council came with their own baggage, their own ideas, their own interpretations, and their own biases, and thus it was these that helped them separate the "divinely inspired" books from those that were not. That is all I have said.
I have also explained to you exactly why I feel I am still right, multiple times. You choose to ignore this and continue to harp on me for one mistake that I gladly conceded (though I haven't yet changed it in the post; is that the bee in your bonnet?) and say that I'm being dogmatic.
In college at a public university I took many classes in both history and philosophy of religion. These inform my viewpoint. I have also read a number of books by members of the so-called "Jesus Seminar." This is probably where our major disconnect is to be found.
In pointing you to Gonzales' book, I was not making an argument from authority so much as attempting, for the first time, to explain why I think as I do. It was no more an appeal to authority than a citation or a "works cited" page.
I was also attempting to ward of just such a long and tiring debate as this one; I do not often enjoy these kinds of confrontations and at the moment am in no mood to continue it. This should not, however, be seen as a default win for you, though given your history of beating straw men and poisoning the well, you might claim it anyway. Enjoy it.
However, were I making an explicit appeal to authority when I referenced Dr. Gonzales, it would have been of the non-fallacious variety: an appeal to a relevant authority in the field being discussed.
Example: I am not an evolutionary biologist. If I entered a conversation regarding, say, punctuated equilibrium, and somebody said something that contradicted my indirect knowledge of it, it would not be fallacious to point them to something written by Stephen J. Gould. That is not the appeal to authority fallacy, it is, as above, a citation.
If I said "Nuh uh, my dad said different!" then, unless my dad was a noted evolutionary biologist, I just might be committing the fallacy.
"Relevant authority"? Funny, as a theologian, I assume I could be trusted to recommend source materials for you to expand your knowledge of this subject. Not a 'waving of credentials to shut you up', but a presentation of competence to recommend sources.
After all, I am not saying that your general thesis is wrong, just that the specific examples you are using undermine your thesis due to what I perceive as errors of fact.
And after your railing against the councils I am a bit surprised that you cite the Jesus Seminar data, where the scholarship is limited by what a vote determined the 'real' bible was; i.e., no scholarship, just voting. Thus the entirety of Jesus' words in the Gospel of Mark was reduced to a single phrase by vote.
Of course, that ignores the reality that the Council just affirmed the existing canonical list that was not voted on by committee....
I recommend the Anchor Bible Dictionary for a good basic history on canonical development and the role of the Councils. Also, anything by Dr. David Noel Freedman. "The Ante-Nicene Fathers" is good, too.
See, historical theology is a field of study as complicated as military history and as fractious. Looking at the members of the Jesus Seminar as a primary source is, in the opinion of any serious scholar, akin to relying on Confederate sources as primary in your understanding of the US Civil War.
Regarding the question of "relevant" authority: I view a theologian to be to theological history what Fox News is to news.
Hardly objective don't you think?
Just my 2c.
"Relevant authority"? Funny, as a theologian, I assume I could be trusted to recommend source materials for you to expand your knowledge of this subject. Not a 'waving of credentials to shut you up', but a presentation of competence to recommend sources.
That's because you are equivocating the obvious meaning of "relevent authority" put forth by Akusai. All of the "relevent authorities" put forth by Akusai have accessible works by which one can evaluate their claims and arguments. This is opposed the situation with you of the ever-changing-name-sake for whom we have zero evidence that you are: A. actually a theologian, B. Have done any scholoarly or literary work to demonstrate that your claimed credentials are worth a damn. If you want to be included in the category of "relevent authority" you must provide evidence that you belong there.
See, historical theology is a field of study as complicated as military history and as fractious. Looking at the members of the Jesus Seminar as a primary source is, in the opinion of any serious scholar, akin to relying on Confederate sources as primary in your understanding of the US Civil War.
Gee wilkers! You can only have one primary source?!?! Do you even know what a primary source even is? In case you've forgotten here is the Wikipedia on it. How could you possibly not consider Confederate documents as primary sources for the civil war? Thanks for providing evidence that you don't know what the hell you are talking about, moron.
dude you totally butchered the verse in Matthew. You are WAYYYY off, & completely got it wrong. That verse (also found in Luke 9:27) is talking about those who spend their energy & life following material things; you know the age old "he who dies with the most toys wins".... well they win nothing but Hell if they don't know Christ as their savior (losing your own soul). Please refrain from quoting something you know nothing about.
dude you totally butchered the verse in Matthew. You are WAYYYY off, & completely got it wrong. That verse (also found in Luke 9:27) is talking about those who spend their energy & life following material things; you know the age old "he who dies with the most toys wins".... well they win nothing but Hell if they don't know Christ as their savior (losing your own soul). Please refrain from quoting something you know nothing about.
Thank you, Turfguy, for opening my eyes to the one and only true interpretation of scripture. Had you not come along, I would have been laboring under a faulty interpretation for the rest of my life.
Your ability to see clearly exactly what the Bible means at every point is ever-astounding, and without it I would truly be lost.
Or you're just a vacuous idiot who missed the obvious sarcasm. Either way, fuck off.
you just proved my point. Go
screw yourself, thank you.
Good to know you can dig victory from the ashes of defeat. Self-esteem is hard to come by these days. I'm glad you still feel good about yourself. Perhaps in the future you can refrain from pathetic, content-free counter-attacks that sound like a petulant 12-year-old on the playground. Maybe then you'd feel even better about yourself.
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